Wednesday, June 22, 2011

Mamzerim and Moshiach

I just went through an interesting sugyah from teh 4th perek in Kiddushin. The gemara says that when Moshiach comes Eliyahu will be mitaheir the mamzeirim. The Ramban learns that even a mamzer vadai will be muttar. The Ran asks that how can it be that the issur of marrying a mamzer will be battul. Rather the gemara means that any mamzer who is mixed in with klal yisroel and we don't know that he is a mamzer will now be muttar. Eliyahu will not reveal the fact that he is a mamzer.

The Ran says that this has a nafka mina b'zman hazeh. Even if someone knows that a person is a mamzer, he can't reveal it. Just like Eliyahu knows who is a mazer and won't reveal it, so too we can't reveal who is a mamzer. The Rema in Even HaEzer (Siman 2) brings the Ran l'halacha.

There is a machlokes between the Chelkas Michokeik and Beis Shmuel (Even HaEzer Siman 2) whether this halacha applies to 2 eidim. The  Chelkas Michokeik says the Ran is only referring to a situation where one eid knows someone is a mazeir, or where there is a rumor about a person then we don't investigate. But if 2 eidim know they have to tell beis din. The Beis Shmuel holds even 2 eidim can't say anything.

The Chazon Ish (Even HaEzer Siman 1) seems to pasken like the Chelkas Michokeik.


micha said...

The deOraisa is a mamzer vadai marrying into a qehillah that has a yichus tahor vadai. So, what Eliyahu haNavi's beis din would have to do is:

1- Repeal or reduce the maaleh asu beyuchsin.

And then
2- Create doubt about every mamzeir
3- Create doubt about the kashrus of the majority.


micha said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chaim Markowitz said...

I am not sure if you are clarifying or argueing on what I wrote.

I think according to the Ran, all Eliyahu will do is state that anyone who is not a vadai mamzer no longer has a status of safeik mamzer.

I believe I saw that the shechina would not be shoreh on one who is a safeik mamzer, so by Eliyahu removing that status of safeik mamzer, the shechina can be shoreh on that person.

micha said...

And I added two other possible ways to clear up mamzeirus without repealing a de'Oraisa.

1- There are very few if any mamzeirim deOraisa. Rov be'ilos acharei haba'al. If you can prove it wasn't (e.g. the husband was probably me'eiver layam), then you proved she's a perutzah. And then you can ask whether the father was a non-Jew she isn't admitting to having had relations with.

2- As you said

3- The qehillah also needs to be vadai, so you can attack that. After 2 centuries since the birth of German R, it's easy enough to cast a question about the kashrus of a mi'ut shekhichah of that qehillah.

And since it's a mi'ut, there isn't a problem about having thereby eliminated nevu'ah.

I'm not sure I undersatand the bit about safeiq mamzer and nevu'ah, though. De'oraisa, there is no such thing as safeiq mamzeir. Not just if safeiq deOraisa lechumerah is a din derabbanan, but because the pasuq explicitly says there is no such thing.

So, the rabbanim created a concept that removed the possibility of getting nevu'ah? Does this speak to whether gezeiros are followed for practical reasons or because chazal thereby created a metaphysical chalos?