tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post5788672023430726598..comments2023-10-25T11:24:07.780-04:00Comments on Nefesh HaChaim: Parshas VaYichi:Attempting To Do An AveirahChaim Markowitzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00394877450412567027noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post-5236063338744269882010-01-06T11:03:34.994-05:002010-01-06T11:03:34.994-05:00>> The Ohr haChaim himself discusses hirhure...>> The Ohr haChaim himself discusses hirhurei aveirah being worse than the aveirah itself (as per Yuma 29a<br /><br />Where does the Ohr HacHaim discuss this.<br /><br />In any event I have two answers.<br /><br />1) the Ohr HacHaim is discussing onshim-getting punished for doing or thinkiong something. Hirhurei aveirah kasha k'aveira might not mean punishment. It might mean something else.<br /><br />2) There is probably a difference between hirhur and machshava, just like there is a difference between stam re'iyah and histaklas. Even Without the Ohr Hachaim you can ask that on the one hand we have a concept called "hirhurei aveirah being worse than the aveirah" and on the other hand we have a oncept that HKBH is not mistareif machshava l'ma'seh by aveiros-meaning Hashem won't punish for your intent but only for doing the actual act. <br /><br />The difference could be that mchshava would be more like intention. Soemone who has a machseves aveirah means that he intends to do an aveirah. When acting on his intention he can either be successful or unsuccessful. <br /><br />Hirhur would be thinking and dwelling on a ma'aseh aveirah whetehr or not there is intention to do that aveirah. For example, soemone can think all day about z'nus. Now that person has no intention to commit any acts of z'nus, rather all he is doing is fantasizing and being miharheir. In this case, one can even go as far to say that the hirhur itself is in effect the ma'aseh aveirah. In such a case we would say hirhurei aveirah is worse than the aveirah.<br /><br />However, someone else might not be dwelling/thinking about it but rather he "only" intends to do the actual ma'seh z'nus. He might or might not be unsuccessful. It is this case which the Ohr Hachaim is discussing.Chaim Markowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927146649559508598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post-47862810944638833162010-01-05T11:14:45.330-05:002010-01-05T11:14:45.330-05:00I'm astounded. I still am unable to be meqabei...I'm astounded. I still am unable to be meqabeil that's what he meant. There HAS to be more to the story. The Ohr haChaim himself discusses hirhurei aveirah being worse than the aveirah itself (as per Yuma 29a). Here he is saying that the hirhur without the aveirah is patur???<br /><br />(Not to mention it being a huge disjoin between the Ohr haChaim and his talmid, the Chida...)<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post-66450701355992824062010-01-05T11:03:51.594-05:002010-01-05T11:03:51.594-05:00Read what he says.
He says someone who intends to...Read what he says.<br /><br />He says someone who intends to give someone poison and winds up giving him wine is not chayuv even b'dinei shamayim. His loshon is "Harei eino mischayav klum, harei heim peturim v'zakaim gam b'dinei shamayim". Here is a link to it <br />http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38295&st=&pgnum=144&hilite=<br /><br /> His point is that this is what Yosef is telling his brothers-they will not be punished for what they did.<br />You don't have to understand it, and there are other meforshim who clearly disagree. I'm not saying I fully understand it either but the bottom line is that is what the Ohr HaChaim holds.Chaim Markowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927146649559508598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post-64188883452890956402010-01-05T10:56:21.512-05:002010-01-05T10:56:21.512-05:00But R' Chaim, do you really think that the Ohr...But R' Chaim, do you really think that the Ohr haChaim doesn't hold that someone who tries to kill another won't get <i>any</i> time (or is that "time"?) in gehenom for it? I find that concept altogether astounding, to the point of not believing it possible.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post-12744296778644381652010-01-05T09:55:26.937-05:002010-01-05T09:55:26.937-05:00The point of the Ohr HaCHaim is that you are patur...The point of the Ohr HaCHaim is that you are patur for attempted murder.Chaim Markowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927146649559508598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20291092.post-37555025967532637442010-01-04T13:02:06.523-05:002010-01-04T13:02:06.523-05:00Would this imply that while he's off the hook ...Would this imply that while he's off the hook for murder, since that's BALC and chaveiro didn't suffer, he isn't off the hook for contemplating murder?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.com